Steak Pizzaiola is a dish I ate frequently as a kid but hadn’t fully reveled in its frugality until I grew up and had to feed my own family. While many restaurants try to fancy it up with expensive cuts of beef, the good news is this old-school meal is actually better when more affordable methods are employed.

If you prefer video, watch the full episode 20 YouTube video version.

Podcast 20 featured image of Jim, Tara, and pic of steak pizzaiola.

Steak Pizzaiola, or carne alla pizzaiola, refers to steak (or beef) cooked in the pizza-maker style.

While it’s open to various interpretations, I’ve always known it to include some sort of steak cooked in a tomato sauce that’s been heavily flavored with oregano.

While my steak pizzaiola recipe includes chuck steak, peppers, and mushrooms, it can be made with other ingredients as well.

I’ve always known it as a more economical dish, although many restaurants will serve it with a more expensive cut of beef, such as a ribeye or porterhouse.

While the expensive steaks are tasty in their own right, I prefer to take a more affordable approach since it’s easier on the wallet but also honors the history of alla pizzaiola.

In the Steak Pizzaiola podcast episode, we share our personal experiences with steak pizzaiola, touch briefly on its slightly hazy history, and explore the 2 main methods of preparing this beloved dish.


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James (00:00):
Welcome back to the Sip and Feast podcast. Today we’re talking steak pizzaiola. We’re discussing the intricacies of this dish, the history of the dish, what it means to us, what it means to you, Tara, what it means if you grew up in the New York, New Jersey area, you probably know this dish. Your mother, your Nona, your friends, your uncle, somebody probably made it for you. Somebody probably said they make a mean steak pizzaiola. Conversely, if you grew up in an area outside of this little pocket of America, you might not have heard of this dish. How do I know that? Well, we just put up the recipe on the main channel and it’s got about… I don’t know, it has over a hundred thousand views, which is a good amount to a good sample size. There were probably, Tara, I would say 20, 30, maybe 50 comments that said they never heard of the dish, right?

That’s my non-scientific way of knowing that it might not be too known outside of this area. That’s why I want to share it with you today and let you know how good it is and how delicious it can be. If you’re a fan of Everybody Loves Raymond, then you have heard of this dish because I believe, and I never really watched the show, Tara, I believe Ray used to say that his mother made the best steak pizzaiola.

Tara (01:22):
I think that’s the story behind it.

James (01:23):
You don’t know either. You don’t watch the show either.

Tara (01:25):
I watched episodes here and there of it. Your parents are huge fans of it. Maybe we should have asked them what they thought of the steak pizzaiola references in the show, but no, my understanding is that Marie Barone, Doris Roberts’ character, made the best steak pizzaiola.

James (01:46):
Well, I don’t know if my version’s going to be as good as Marie’s, but we’re going to talk about the difference between how it’s done in a household and how it’s done in a restaurant. We’re going to bring a little bit of the history of this dish, which from my understanding isn’t too popular in Italy either, right?

Tara (02:02):
There wasn’t a whole lot of information about where it originated, mainly just theories.

Steak pizzaiola in pan with large fork and basil leaves.

What is steak pizzaiola?

James (02:08):
Before Tara gives the backstory, I will just tell you simply, it goes by carne alla pizzaiola, bistecca alla pizzaiola, and basically… Tara, what does all pizzaiola mean?

Tara (02:21):
Pizzaiola translates… It’s an Italian word. Translate it into English, it means pizza chef or pizza maker. The dish usually refers to meat that’s cooked in a pizza maker style. What exactly does that mean? It’s usually a tough cut of beef that’s braised in a tomato sauce with oregano. I think it’s the oregano with the tomatoes that give it the pizza maker name. Am I right about that?

James (02:56):
Yeah, that’s right.

Tara (02:57):

James (02:58):

Tara (02:58):
Yeah. There’s usually some sort of vegetable that goes along with that. I know our recipe includes peppers and mushrooms. Onions.

James (03:08):
Oh, you found out that there is a vegetable always included in it?

Tara (03:12):
No, I’m just saying all the versions that I’ve had of the dish include. I’ve never had it with just beef and tomato sauce.

James (03:19):
I think really it probably is often done just with beef and tomato sauce. I wasn’t sure because I always make it with mushrooms or peppers.

We will talk more about it in a second, the different variations for it. Before Tara goes on here, I don’t think I’m selling… I don’t think I’m not selling enough. I didn’t sell it all to you how good this dish is. It’s a super flavorful dish. It’s from… The way that… Now again, I’m talking about one of the versions. It’s the way the meat combines with the tomatoes and the cooking process that flavors the sauce. It makes it very… It’s a very hardy dish. The type of cut of beef too that I typically use and many others use makes it even hardier. It’s a winter dish for me, a fall and winter dish. I wouldn’t really want to eat this during the spring and summer, though I do enjoy plenty of steak during the spring and summer. This dish is almost heavier than your typical, just a regular steak.

Tara (04:18):
It’s almost like a beef stew, but just with tomatoes and not with a broth.

James (04:24):
Many people, when we did the video, a lot of the people didn’t know what it was, but then other ones were saying, who still didn’t know what it was, they were like, this is a dish called Swiss Steak.

Tara (04:34):
Yes, that’s right. Those were a lot of comments we had.

James (04:36):
There was a lot of comparison to that as well. But I’ll let Tara go on about more info about it and the backstory.

Tara (04:43):
Okay. Like we said before, there wasn’t a whole lot of information on steak pizzaiola. I tried to do as much research as I could, but what I did find was that some theories say it originated in Naples. Others say it originated in Sicily. There’s one story that said this was something that a pizza maker would make for themselves while they were tending to the pizza for their customers. I guess it was something they would just almost set and forget while they were doing other things. But again, the information that was out there was very limited, especially compared to some of the other dishes that we’ve spoken about like pasta fazool. There’s a lot more historical information there.

James (05:33):
That’s interesting because this dish is… It’s a very popular dish here. Maybe that makes sense because it’s Neapolitan or Sicilian.

Personal experience with the dish

Tara (05:42):
My thought was that since I wasn’t able to gain a whole lot of insight into the history of steak pizzaiola, I thought maybe we could just share our own history.

James (05:54):
My experience with the dish is from the way my mother and my grandmother made it. This is another one of the dishes that I had a lot growing up. Now, it’s funny. A cut of chuck, which is what my mother used, and she would use chuck steaks that were with the bone, which are harder to find now, definitely harder to find here in the places that we frequent, but she would get these very thin stakes. These stakes were cut specifically on the bandsaw, how a butcher does it, into about a half inch thick. They had the bone in them and then the meat was a half inch thick. They were perfect in that sense, maybe three quarter inch thick, that essentially this would make you not have to do a three hour brace, because if you ever made a pot roast with a full chuck steak, you’re looking at a three hour, it could be up to four hour brazing time, versus if you cut the steaks, that whole chuck steak, very into very thin pieces, you’ll accelerate the cooking time.

But that’s how my mother made it. She made it with that type of cut of beef always. That’s also how my grandmother made it. It was really simple. My mother wouldn’t even put mushrooms or peppers, which is what I do now. She would just do tomatoes, plum tomatoes, a lot of garlic. Honestly, I don’t even think she finished it with any herbs or anything. I don’t think she used white wine. I think it was really the essence of the dish was that tomato, the garlic, and we would serve it… You would serve it with cheese on top. Besides the oregano, you would serve it with cheese on top at the end, which is what you would do with most dishes.

Tara (07:35):
Did she serve it with rice or pasta? How did she serve it?

James (07:39):
I always remember white rice being what it was served with. I remember a lot of dishes that she would do, but it was my grandmother more, I think. That baked rice dish that we did a few months ago, riso al forno, which is a delicious dish, that gives me a little bit of a similarity because she would bake it with the red sauce and the cheese. It was also the red sauce and the cheese for the steak pizzaiola.

Tara (08:06):
I don’t have too much of a history with steak pizzaiola because I did not grow up eating it.

James (08:10):
Did you even hear about it? When did you hear about it?

Tara (08:14):
I honestly don’t remember, but I feel like the first time I probably heard about it was from you, because you would always talk about the different food that your mom or your grandma had cooked for you. I know that was one of the meals that was in your… Was it a weekly rotation that she would make it, or was it a monthly?

James (08:34):
It wasn’t weekly. It was definitely monthly. Definitely had it 12 times a year, but probably more. I’ve joked in the past. My mother didn’t have 300 dishes. I don’t think your mother or grandmother did either. Tell… Maybe I’m wrong, maybe they did. But no, that wasn’t the case for… Not the way I grew up.

Tara (09:01):
The first time I actually had steak pizzaiola was when you and I had gone out to dinner to… We probably have spoken about this place a few times. It was a little restaurant that was right off the Long Island Expressway in [inaudible 00:09:18]. It was called La Strada. The restaurant that’s in its spot now is Piccola Bussola, which is a good restaurant, but La Strada was one of the places we frequented. When I had it, I believe they used a porterhouse. It was a dish for the two of us to share. It wasn’t just like a standalone dish.

James (09:43):
The way you experienced it, that will be the way you, 95% of the time, you will have experienced it if you only know it from a restaurant. This is a common thing amongst a lot of these dishes. They get changed a lot when they make it into the restaurant.

Tara (10:00):
The way I had it, I don’t remember if they had… I don’t think they had peppers in the sauce. I just remember there being a lot of mushrooms and a lot of garlic. I remember really, really enjoying the dish. It was probably one of the first really beefy dishes I had eaten because up until I met you, I hadn’t consumed a whole lot of red meat.

James (10:24):
Yeah. No, yeah, I remember when before you had steak or anything.

White plate with cut piece of steak pizzaiola and lots of garlic cloves.

The different versions

Tara (10:29):
It seems that there are two ways to make this dish. One would be a quick way and then the other would be a slower way. The quick way being probably made with a leaner cut of beef, whereas the long way would be more of a braise. Can you just talk a little bit about that?

James (10:47):
Yeah. Honestly, there’s probably three ways because… If you go into, and you can go into places here, you can go into specialty stores or supermarkets even. A lot of times they’ll have braising meat sliced very thin. For steak pizzaiola, they’ll have, as I said before, the thin cut chuck steaks. You can do it then much quicker, even though it essentially is a braise. Then they’ll have the thicker ones which are going to take you longer. They could take upwards of two hours. When I just made it recently, it took two and a half hours roughly in the video. Those stakes were huge. Then there’s the fancy way.

I will just address, I want to talk about the fancy way. There’s a video from… It’s like Rao’s from maybe 10 years ago. The chef there, he was on Good Morning America or something. I don’t know, I forget. I’ve long forgot where it was, but he was on local TV. I think he might’ve been on Elvis and the… You know what, he probably was on Elvis Duran, because that’s… Aren’t Elvis Duran always pushing the sauce all the time?

Tara (11:56):
I believe Rao’s sponsors the Elvis Duran in the morning.

James (12:00):
Show, so maybe that’s where it was. I think he made steak pizzaiola for the crew there. It was like six in the morning or whatever, but he had two huge dry-aged rib eyes that he made it with. What he did, he started the sauce. I believe he made it the same way I make it. I think he did use peppers and mushrooms, and then he made the quick sauce with the hand squeezed plumb tomatoes, and then the sauce was done. Essentially a flash sauce, like 10 minutes. I think he grilled. I think they were outside. He grilled the steaks to medium rare, sliced the steaks, and then just put them in that sauce for a minute, so as not to overcook the steak, spooned it over, finished maybe with some herbs. Done.

Now, this is the way that Tara was describing at La Strada that we went to as well. This is the way you will get it 95% of the time in most restaurants. It’s a good thing for restaurants to serve, because it’s very easy for them to make. They have the grill, just the grill person in the restaurant, just do a steak. The sauce is already there, just throwing it together. Boom, served.

Not that a braised dish is hard for a restaurant to make, but that means they have to make them ahead of time, and then when they run out, they run out. You’re never going to run out of the other way because you could just… Even if you run out of rib eyes, then you could just go back to the customer and be like, “Well, I only have porterhouse now. We only have New York strips.”

It even works really well with flank steak, skirt steak. There’s a variety of ways to make it. They both have very… The outcome for both of these dishes is extremely different tasting.

Tara (13:33):
Yeah. I was going to just ask because… One of the criticisms that James had in the pizzaiola video.

James (13:41):
The taste tester.

Tara (13:41):
The taste tester.

James (13:42):
Who’s our son.

Tara (13:43):
Little James, yes.

James (13:45):
People who was in the podcast, is it possible that they don’t know the YouTube channel? It is.

Tara (13:50):
It’s possible.

James is our son. He has been the taste tester on the main channel for quite some time right now. He’ll usually take a few bites of the food at the end and give it a rating on a scale from one to 10. He’ll usually criticize or say what it is that he likes about it or doesn’t like. He enjoyed the steak pizzaiola, but the one thing that he was critical of was that it was too beefy for him. It just tasted too… The beef flavor was too much.

First of all, if you like a beefy flavor, maybe you do want to cook it the long way, but if you are not into that whole beefiness, maybe the way that you’d want to eat it is the quick way.

James (14:33):
Because what happens is… Again, it got lost on some people. They were like, “Well, how could it be any more beefy?” Well, the reason is, first of all, I used a little bit of beef stock too, but the beef itself, when you’re brazing in that sauce for two hours, it changes the sauce from a bright sauce to…

Tara (14:49):
It’s like a Sunday sauce.

James (14:50):
… to like a concentrated… Yeah, like a Sunday sauce.

Tara (14:51):
Like a brick red instead of a bright red marinara.

James (14:58):
Very different. Often, I do like it when the tomatoes are very fresh. I do actually a sausage style, like a sausage stuffed mushrooms, and then the tomatoes are like chunks, really big pieces. They’re only cooked for 20 minutes.

Tara (15:12):
Speaking of seasons, you mentioned that you feel like this is more of a fall or winter dish. Perhaps your spring or summer version of the pizzaiola could just be a grilled steak with some of the sauce quickly done on the side, because then it’s a little bit lighter.

James (15:29):
Or you can braise the dish to beef in other liquid. Remove the braised tender cut of beef, then put your fresh…

Tara (15:37):
The fresh sauce.

James (15:38):
… tomatoes on and cook it for 10 minutes in the oven.

Tara (15:40):
Yeah. You could do that.

James (15:42):
That’s a way to do it. Because a lot of times when you really think about pizza maker, your pizzaiola in Italy, pizza sauce it always, almost always, is not cooked. You are putting that not cooked tomatoes in there at the end.

Tara (15:58):

James (15:59):
I like it both ways.

Tara (16:00):
Yeah, I could see it being good either way.

James (16:03):
Yeah. That’s a big distinction. But then there’s the other version, which I guess is the way that you were going to speak about.

Tara (16:11):
Okay, so the slow method of making this dish is basically how you made it in the video. I was able to find a little bit of information about this method. This… I’m going to actually read something directly. It’s from Frank Fariello who runs the site Memorie di Angelina. We’ve spoken about that site a few times. He’s got a lot of good traditional…

James (16:36):
Excellent information on his site. I actually use it as a reference. Tara’s going to quote him directly here.

Tara (16:44):
Yeah. This is from his site. I think he calls it Alla Pizzaiola on his website. It says the original recipe used a rather tougher cut of beef cooked slowly. According to the authoritative Gene Corolla Francesconi, author of the Classic [inaudible 00:17:04]. The typical cut is called the [inaudible 00:17:09], which is taken from the rear leg of the steer. This is a cut that is not often found even in other parts of Italy. In other places, the Costata, which is the rib, or noche, a filet taken from the inner thigh, are used. In the US, I’d use the kind of cut you’d use for a pot roast, like a bottom round.

That’s basically just a little bit of the history on what would’ve been used in Italy. But again, like he said, that part, the [inaudible 00:17:41], isn’t really found outside of Naples.

That’s a little bit about the cut of meat that would be for the slow method. We used, like you said, the chuck steaks. That’s what your mom… Your mom used to use the bone in chuck steaks, but if somebody…

James (17:57):
Which are hard to find now in the supermarkets.

Tara (17:59):
If somebody can’t find the chuck steaks that are already sliced, could they just buy a chuck roast and slice it themselves, or should they ask their butcher maybe to slice it to the thickness they want?

James (18:10):
Yeah, if you have access, the butcher will do it for you. I would definitely go that way because it will be fairly hard for you to get even slices. Now, that being said, if you don’t, you could just pound them out roughly to the same size.

When they slice them with the bone, at that point you don’t really want to pound them out because your bone is going to be thicker than the meat. Also, you risk hitting the bone and potentially getting a fragment or something like that. I would just pound them without the bone, or get thin ones with the bone.

Tara (18:38):
Yeah. How thin? A half quarter inch?

James (18:41):
They were about a half… No, they were about… The ones that my mother would use were about a half to three quarter inch. Those are typical bone-in chuck steaks.

Ingredients shown: stuck cheaks, red bell pepper, mushrooms, oregano, basil, garlic, olive oil, beef stock, white wine, red pepper flakes, and plum tomatoes.

The ingredients

Tara (18:47):
Let’s talk about how to make it the ingredients that one would use, maybe some variations for ingredients. I know a lot of people, whenever we make something with mushrooms, people will say, “I don’t like mushrooms,” or, “I’m allergic to mushrooms. What can I have that’s something similar maybe?,” or, “What can I omit?” There’s wine in this dish too.

James (19:08):
Right away you can eliminate the wine, you can eliminate the mushrooms if you want. You really could just take this dish down to tomatoes. You a hundred percent could do it. Do I recommend you do that? No, I don’t. If you don’t like mushrooms and you want some bulk in your dish still, you could increase the amount of peppers. That would be fine. Some people use potatoes in it, or a lot of people will serve the steak pizzaiola on top of thin roasted potatoes. That’s a really nice way to do it. That will bulk up your dish too.

You can obviously serve this with pasta. I said it in the video and said it in the recipe also, just if you want to do this. You don’t need to double all the other ingredients, meaning you don’t need to double the beef stock, you don’t need to double the wine. Just double the can of tomatoes. Add an extra 28 ounces can of tomatoes, which 28 ounces is a standard unit can you’re going to buy in America. Just add one more of those and you will have enough sauce at the end of your braise for a pound of pasta. Many people will serve it with pasta. It’s delicious that way.

Tara (20:08):
It’s so good.

James (20:09):
Yeah. The pasta, a penne would be great with it. Penne or even a spaghetti would be good. And then cheese on both your steak and on your pasta.

Now, I didn’t talk about brighteners in the video either. I’ll just address them very quickly. A brightener would be a gremolata. Some people would just squeeze lemon juice into it to brighten it. You already have the wine in there, so that is cutting it a little bit. That is brightening it somewhat. Acids like that will help.

Tara (20:35):
It’s white wine that you use.

James (20:36):
I use white wine. Plenty of people were asking if they could use red wine. The better question was they were like, “Why are you using white wine and not red wine?”

Tara (20:42):

James (20:43):
Use red wine. There’ll be a slight difference in taste when you use a half a cup of red versus a half a cup of white, but not to the point where the dishes are going to be too different. I prefer cooking with white more. White goes in the fridge, it stores better so I can pull it out two weeks later, use it again for a dish. Red, I always… Maybe it’s just because reds, I normally associate more with drinking, especially with my meal.

Tara (21:11):
You wouldn’t drink a glass of Pinot Grigio with steak pizzaiola. You would have a glass of red wine.

James (21:21):
White is…

Tara (21:22):
But to cook with it. Same thing. Bolognese traditionally uses white wine in the recipe. Is that so?

James (21:29):
Most of the time Bolognese uses white wine. I believe the academy accepted recipe, they say use white or red. Most of the time though, if you watch a video, there’ll be an Italian in Italy, no English, they’re making it with white wine.

Tara (21:46):
Same as with the steak pizzaiola. They’re not going to sit down and have a bowl of bolognese with white wine. They would have it with a glass of red wine to drink.

James (21:57):
Yeah, the lightest red wine I would do would be Pinot Noir. That’s the one that I would use.

Tara (22:01):
Yeah, that’s the lightest.

James (22:04):
Pinot Noir for… We could do an episode on wine too if you’re interested, but Pinot Noir will bridge the gap between… Typically you would only think I can only have white wine with fish, but Pinot Noir is fine with fish. It’s good.

Tara (22:18):
It’s good with a salmon, I would say.

James (22:19):
With salmon.

Tara (22:21):
I would still opt for a crisp white with white fish.

James (22:26):
Yeah. When we go out to eat and we do have wine, if we go to a more fancy dinner. This one place we like to go to, we’ll often do a glass of white when we’re having a dish that needs the white, and then we’ll switch and we’ll order a glass of red for the dish that needs the red wine. It’s a really nice way to eat.

Tara (22:46):
It is.

Okay. One of the other ingredients that you used is beef stock. I know we usually talk about the Better Than Bullion is being a great option if you don’t want to make your own beef stock, but you very recently did put out a recipe on the website for homemade beef stock. Ever since you’ve been using that, I’ve noticed a huge difference in flavor in the dishes that you’ve been making with the homemade stock. It is like night and day. The food was delicious to start, but I think using the homemade stock really, really brings it to that almost restaurant quality.

James (23:28):
I would make stocks off and on over the years, but I almost feel like I did this more when I started with YouTube and the website. I don’t want to be cooking with things that you’re not using because all my cooking now is pretty much just making another video. I’d be like, “I want to be using the product that I’m recommending,” so I have to be using the better than bullion. I need everything to be the same.

The main advantage you will have by using homemade stocks, and this is a big advantage, and you put no salt in. It just… It’s a game changer in the sense that as much reduction as you get, and you can make anything, you can reduce much further, make a demi glace, and then you can not worry about… You can’t effectively reduce something that is even technically low sodium too much or it will be way too salty. Then you’ll be like, “I have the super salty thick sauce, now I have to add liquid back to it,” and you’re completely defeating the purpose again of why you reduced it.

Yeah, working with homemade stocks has huge advantages I never get when I see a recipe that has salt in it. Just buy… Just use Better Than Bullion then. You’re making it so you can actually strip the salt. I really wish Better Than Bullion would do a no salt version of all of them. I get why they don’t, because salt makes things taste better and they’re worried their product won’t hold up against a no salt homemade version.

Tara (24:56):

James (24:56):

Anyway, that’s a long way of talking about the stock issue.

Tara (24:59):
I think we talked about all the ingredients, except for the most… What might be the most important two ingredients, the tomatoes and the oregano. What type of tomatoes would you use, and what type of oregano would you use?

James (25:14):
Well, I would say use the best tomatoes that you can find. You don’t need to buy Sam Marzano. There’s really good American brands. One of the best brands is Alta Cucina. Use those. They’re fabulous. The Nina cans are sold a lot of times in Costco. They’re very, very cheap. If you’re interested more about Costco, the episode prior to this we talked all about Costco and the deals there. You will get tremendous deals. But use the tomatoes that you can afford that are whole tomatoes. I like to break them up, make it a little rustic.

Tara (25:45):
You wouldn’t use crushed tomatoes or passata or anything?

James (25:48):
You can. I wouldn’t use passata.

Tara (25:48):

James (25:48):
Passata is basically used, is almost in its finished state. Passata, you don’t need to cook a long time. Passata will just get too thick. That is an issue even with this dish. If you have to end up brazing it for a long time, you’re going to evaporate most of your liquid, so you might have to add a little bit more tomato or even just stock or water back into it. Again, this is all dependent on the brazing time.

Tara (26:15):

James (26:15):

Tara (26:16):
Use Sicilian oregano for this one?

James (26:18):
Sicilian oregano. I like to use Sicilian oregano. When you smell that right away, it will bring you back. If you’re from New York, if you left, it will be one of those ingredients you will recognize When you used to walk into a pizzeria when you were young. To me, it’s a better ingredient than most of the stuff that you buy in jars that’s pre-ground. Sicilian oregano, it’s the flower buds. It’s the different… You know when the oregano grows and it goes to seed, it grows flowers? It’s just a spicier… Greek oregano too. It’s the same thing. Delicious.

Tara (26:52):
Would you use fresh oregano?

James (26:54):
I wouldn’t use fresh oregano for it. No, I wouldn’t. I’m not a big fan of fresh oregano. Are you?

Tara (26:59):
I like it in egg… Not egg salad. I like fresh oregano in potato salad. The reason why I like it is because a long time ago we made a… It was just potato and tomato with some oil and vinegar, olive oil and vinegar. We had fresh oregano and we added it and it tasted so good. I like it because of the time that I had it.

James (27:27):

Tara (27:27):
Do you remember that?

James (27:27):
It sounds familiar. I feel like my grandmother would do the tomatoes with the vinegar like that with the oregano. Yeah.

4 part steak pizzaiola process shot collage showing hand crushing tomatoes, seasoning the steaks, searing the steaks, and sauteeing the mushrooms and peppers.

The method

Tara (27:36):
Yeah. It was very fresh tasting. Okay, so as far as the method of you cooking it, do you want to talk about that?

James (27:43):
Method… Watch the video for the brazing method. Honestly, you could do it the way I did it. You could also just do it in a dutch oven with the lid covered. Totally fine. You could put it in the oven. There were many questions about that. People were like, “Oh God, I don’t want to do it in the pan there on the burner that long.” Put it in your dutch oven, cover it, cook it until it’s tender. I can tell you cook your chuck until it’s 205 degrees Fahrenheit, where the connective tissue, everything is breaking down, where a lot of your fat is liquefying. Ultimately, you really just want it to be nice and fork tender when you grab it. That’s an easier way for me to tell you what to do. Because when they get really thin, it’s hard to take an accurate temperature measurement in there.

Tara (28:23):
It’s best to just, what? Use a fork and just break it and see if it’s…

James (28:24):
Yeah. Just like how…

Tara (28:30):
… if it’s good.

James (28:31):
We’ve done so many beef dishes recently where I’m always breaking it apart.

Tara (28:37):
They’re all kind of blending together in my mind.

James (28:37):
They’re all blending together. It’s the beef Bergen yawn and the steak pizzaiola were back to back, those videos. Talking about the flash way. Flash way would be extremely thin piece of beef. A lot of times this beef is just top round, bottom round. It’ll be stuff that has no fat in it. You’ll just sear that minute… Hot pan, minute per side. Take it out, make your sauce, put the beef back in, cook it for a minute or two and you’re done. You could do steak pizzaiola in a few minutes that way.

Tara (29:08):
It could be like a weeknight 30 minute meal.

James (29:11):
It’s a completely different dish that way. I prefer the long way, but I don’t want to neglect a short way. Most of the recipes on page one of Google will be for the short way, because short quick timing things always win. People are like, “Oh God, I’m not doing this Sip and Feast guy’s recipe. It’s two and a half hours, versus this person says it takes 22 minutes to make steak pizzaiola.” That affects a lot of click throughs.

Tara (29:37):
That’s true.

James (29:40):
They’re just entirely different dishes. I would like to put the recipe up for both of them.

Another way to do it, which is a very quick way, would be to use a flank steak. With the flank steak, you would cut it… When you look at a flank steak, a typical flank steak is about one and a half to two pounds. You buy the whole flank in a store. A flank steak is an easy cut for a beginner to use because the grain is so visible the way it goes. It’ll just be lines running the length of it. What you can do is you can cut two inch long strips following that grain, then turn it the other way, and then cut perpendicular to that grain, so a 90 degree cut. That’s going to make the pieces nice and easy for you to tear them. You always want to cut against the grain to make a more tender cut. You can take all that beef, you can sear it in the pan, like flash sear it, remove it, make your sauce, throw the steak back in, and then you have very quick… It’s tender. It’s not tender, it’s chewy, but good, which is the way… What dish that we just did with that?

Tara (30:47):
The steak stroganoff, or beef stroganoff.

James (30:50):
Beef stroganoff. That’s coming up probably shortly after you listen to this.

Tara (30:56):
If you need help visualizing the way you were describing how to cut, you show how to cut it in that video.

James (31:03):
Yes. Show in the video and on the site how to do it.

Tara (31:05):
Yes. Somebody who’s listening who wants to do the flank steak for the steak pizzaiola, they could watch how you prepared the flank steak in the stroganoff video and then just apply it to the pizzaiola.

James (31:18):
Yeah. I like the flank steak idea because flank is about half the price of skirt steak. It’s a good value. It’s actually a good value at Costco. They normally have a good price on it. It’s not a cheap cut. Chuck and flank are kind of similar prices now, which is again, very odd. The reason my mother used Chuck when we were young is because she was able to buy those steaks for $1.49 a pound or whatever. It was just like… Maybe less. It was a super cheap peasant dish. Peasant dish for people here. In Italy, it would still be too expensive for somebody to cook. But that was like, we’ve gone into stuff like that in the past.

That’s essentially the dish. You could finish it with nice basil, a little parsley. I didn’t talk about variations on it.

Tara (32:06):
We’ll go in… Yeah.

James (32:07):
Oh, we’re going to go into that.

Tara (32:08):

James (32:08):
Okay. We’re going to go into that right now then?

Tara (32:09):

Ways to change it up

James (32:09):
Okay. What would you think would be a great variation? I think you know the answer to some of these ideas, because I think I’ve made it a couple times in the past.

Tara (32:18):
Chicken, right?

James (32:18):
Oh, well, I wasn’t even… I was talking about if we’re still staying with steak, what other ingredients would you add to it?

Tara (32:23):

James (32:23):
What would you… Just think about it. Even if you don’t know what I was thinking, just what would you like in it that would totally change the character of the dish, but still be delicious?

Tara (32:35):
Do you have something that I’m supposed to say?

James (32:38):
Cherry peppers, for sure.

Tara (32:39):
I think the mushrooms are the best way to make it because they’re…

James (32:43):
Well, you could do mushrooms and cherry peppers.

Tara (32:47):
You could. Yeah, I think cherry peppers… Yeah, I think cherry peppers is going to really change the dish. It’s going to make it more like arrabbiata, or…

James (32:54):
I would use the cherry peppers over the calabrian chilies. I wouldn’t use them. The calabrian chili is going to make it too spicy.

Tara (32:59):
I don’t think I would use either. I think for me, I think this dish is meant to not be a spicy dish.

James (33:04):
Okay, then we’ll talk about other…

Tara (33:06):
But that’s me.

James (33:06):
Let’s talk about other ingredients then. What else do you have? There’s a couple ingredients we talked about in the Costco episode. I’ve made it a couple times with this.

Tara (33:15):
Have you?

James (33:15):
Yeah, but I did it with the thin steaks. The thin top round pieces I did.

Tara (33:20):
Am I supposed to remember this?

James (33:21):
It is capers.

Tara (33:23):

James (33:24):
And the oil cured olives.

Tara (33:26):
Yeah. Yeah, I think that would be good. But then you’re going into…

James (33:31):
Just a touch. Not too much

Tara (33:33):
… [inaudible 00:33:34] territory.

James (33:34):
Not too much, just a touch.

Tara (33:36):
No, I think that would be really good.

James (33:37):

Tara (33:37):

James (33:37):

Tara (33:39):
Yeah. I could have it without the peppers and just the mushrooms, but I do like the peppers in it.

James (33:43):
All right. Well, those are the variations. As far as the variations on the dish, you could do pork chop pizzaiola. Delicious. You can do chicken pizzaiola. We have a recipe for the chicken pizzaiola. It’s very much the same still with the mushrooms and the peppers. I think I put onions in it too.

Tara (33:59):
If you were going to do pork chop, like pork pizzaiola, you would use pork chops. Bone in pork chops?

James (34:06):
Yeah, if you use loin chops, which are the best type of chops you can use, those ones I would do a nice sear, pull them out, I would make my sauce and then just spoon it over. Kind of the fancy steak way.

If you’re using a low quality chop, which are… I forget… They’re blade chops. If you’re using something like that. They’re a lot cheaper in the supermarket than the better quality pork chops. Those ones actually work fairly well by long brazing them. The pork will be cooked all the way past, but there’s enough fat and connective tissue, grizzle, whatever, in there that it will work. I actually cooked the pork chops and cherry peppers, or pork chops and vinegar peppers in that manner, in slow braise.

Tara (34:50):
Yes, those are good too.

James (34:52):

Tara (34:53):

James (34:54):
High quality beef or pork, short. The braising stuff, long cook.

Tara (35:00):
What about for our vegetarian listeners? Could you do a giant portobello mushroom pizzaiola?

James (35:08):
You could. I almost feel like we’re including it at the end, but I kind of feel that vegetarians are probably mostly would skip this type of dish. But yeah, that would be what I would do. That would be really the only ingredient I could think of for it. We have a lot of vegetarian dishes that are just tomato-based. We have the butternut squash Parmesan. I almost feel like you’re better off doing a Parmesan instead of just a pizzaiola. I would add some mozzarella and layer it if you were going to use that portobello.

Tara (35:40):
Then you mentioned it before, but you do have the recipe for the sausage stuffed mushrooms with a pizzaiola sauce. If you wanted to make those, you could skip the sausage and just make regular stuffed mushrooms with a pizzaiola sauce.

James (35:54):
You can. I feel like the meat, the hardy meat of the mushrooms balances it out a little bit. I’m pretty sure my grandmother used to make a dish like this. She used to stuff the mushrooms with meat, and then it was tomatoes she would squeeze on top of it. It’s just the way I did it. I don’t know if she used sausage for it. I think it might’ve been ground beef. I think it’s better with sausage though. That’s what I would recommend.

Tara (36:17):
Yeah, those are really good. That video has not been put out yet. I think that was the last video we filmed in the old…

James (36:23):
Yeah, it’s like a year ago now.

Tara (36:25):
… the old kitchen.

James (36:26):
We have seven videos that have been filmed six, nine months ago, that have never made it. They’re like the Sip and Feast lost files. I don’t know where I’m going to put them. I might put them on Patreon, secret episodes, or… I’m not sure. I feel like I can’t put video up of the old kitchen now.

Tara (36:44):
It’s going to confuse people.

James (36:46):
We have the old kitchen. The old kitchen is not gone. It’s still our kitchen. If you follow our Instagram, and you should, you’ll see it. I show that kitchen all the time. Feel free to message us. You can message us through, or you can leave a comment on the YouTube video to let us know… Maybe there’s a different way you make it. I think we kind of covered all the bases here with this dish. Obviously there’s some more obscure ways that we didn’t, but we really tried to be thorough in the sense that give you a pretty good headstart on making this one.

Tara (37:22):
Yeah, I hope.

James (37:23):

Tara (37:24):

James (37:24):
I don’t know if I sold it effectively, if you really want to make it. Tara, maybe sell it for 20 seconds. Should people make it?

Tara (37:31):
Definitely. They should make it because you’re using more inexpensive cuts of beef. You’re going to get that great beefy flavor for less money. I think it’s a really tasty dish. I do agree with you. I was kind of playing devil’s advocate with making it in the summer, but I would agree that it’s like a fall and winter dish. If I walked through the door on a weeknight and smelled that cooking, I would be really excited to eat it. Because that’s the other thing I don’t think we talked about, the smell of the food. The way it makes your home smell is just…

James (38:14):
Yeah. Well, I think we’re a few years away.

Tara (38:14):
Nothing like it.

James (38:15):
We’re a few years away from smello vision on the YouTube videos.

Question 1 – cheese rinds

All right, we’re going to go into the questions.

Tara (38:23):
First question is from Chestin. Jim and Tara, I recently watched your pasta e cece video from seven months back. In the beginning when introducing the aromatics, you said something about using the Parmesan rind for over 80 recipes. Did you mean that you used the same rind in all those recipes, or that you just used a rind in each dish? I use a cheese rind in lots of soups I make, but I always throw it away after cooking that meal. Okay, so answer that, because…

James (38:53):
I know.

Tara (38:53):
We’ve gotten asked that question many, many times.

James (38:55):
You know what? I have to really be more precise with the language I use. Chestin, I meant I’ve used it in probably 80 dishes, and it’s probably not that many, but pretty much a lot of soups I’ve made and a lot of dishes that kind of straddle that soup or pasta line, like pasta e ceci, I will add it in. I always like to let people know about this because you’re buying the rind… I mean you’re buying the cheese, the block of cheese, and you have the rind. I think instinctually most people will want to throw it away when they’re done with it. They’re like, get that last bit, and they don’t realize that you can use it and you can actually in fact eat the whole rind.

Tara (39:36):
Yeah, but you’re using the rind for one dish.

James (39:39):
One dish. I just use it one time.

Tara (39:40):
And then you’re throwing it away. Just to… Because that’s the question, is are you reusing it?

James (39:45):
A hundred percent, you’re throwing it away.

Tara (39:47):
You’re throwing it away. You’re a hundred percent throwing it away?

James (39:50):
Yeah, I’m definitely throwing it away. But you can…

Tara (39:53):
You’re making this even more confusing.

James (39:56):
I’m sorry for the confusion. I’m being a moron today. No, throw it away. Now, definitely throw it away. But you can also eat it before you throw it away.

Tara (40:06):
Yeah, after you let it simmer in your soup or whatever. The other thing I want to add is that you’re not… If you have the rind from… Let’s just use Costco size Parmesan Reggiano as an example, it’s usually four to five inches by two inches. You’re not using that entire rind.

James (40:27):
No, no.

Tara (40:28):
You can take that rind, you can cut it into slices. You really only need maybe one inch.

James (40:34):
Yeah, no, you could probably get five to 10 rinds in a Costco size block.

Sausage pasta fagioli recipe featured image.

See the cheese rind in the above pic of our sausage pasta fagioli recipe.

Tara (40:41):
Yes. Do that. Don’t just use one giant rind for one dish so that you can get more mileage out of it. The other thing I wanted to mention is that I’ve seen it sold at Uncle Giuseppe’s and Whole Foods, where they will actually package the rinds in a plastic container. You can buy them that way. I don’t even know what it costs. Maybe like $2.50, or whatever, depending on the weight, but if you want… If there’s a cheese monger at the grocery store and you don’t see the rinds out, I would recommend asking the cheese monger if they have rinds that they can sell to you. Honestly, they might not even sell them to you. They might just give them to you and say, “Oh, we were going to get rid of them anyway.”

James (41:27):
She’s right. Honestly, I think they only started selling them now at Whole Foods is partly because of my videos, and a few other people. I’m not kidding. I’m really not, because I’ll tell you what, a lot of the other guys and girls on YouTube, they don’t use them like I do. I know this because everybody’s like, “Jim, you’re the only person I’ve seen do this.” I think some of them are copying me now in their videos, but I’ve been doing it for the whole four years that I’ve been making videos. It’s like miraculously then, I remember starting to see them in Whole Foods like a year ago. I think Whole Foods was charging… It’s crazy to say this, I think close to the price per pound that Costco charges for their blocks of cheese. I want to say Whole Foods was charging nine bucks a pound for these rinds, and you can buy the whole block of cheese at Costco for 10.99 a pound. I don’t know what Uncle Giuseppe’s charges for. It’s a good place. I recommend… I tell you guys that we get a lot of ingredients there. There’s so many things that store just rubs me the wrong way. Their basil is horrible, and a lot of their produce. Tara, am I wrong? Right or wrong here?

Tara (42:33):
A lot of times if I go there, I have to go to other stores. For their basil. Their parsley is not always good. It’s hit or miss, but it’s honestly, it’s like that in almost every place that I go to, which is why I’m usually going to three different grocery stores. That’s not even including Costco.

James (42:52):
But Uncle Giuseppe’s, you are trying to sell Italian ingredients. That’s your thing. Why are you not selling high quality basil? Your competitors have basil in it. they do. I don’t want to buy the basil from Brazil that you keep selling in the supermarket. That’s where it’s from. It’s not good. I don’t know what variety it is either, but it’s not the variety… It’s a pain, because then we’re stuck in a situation where we need the basil. We’re going to actually end up growing our basil indoors this year, for this particular reason.

That being said, if I need sorted ingredients, like… What’s the… For the cannoli?

Tara (43:37):

James (43:37):
Yeah, they’ll have that. They’ll have [inaudible 00:43:41].

Tara (43:41):
Yeah, they have the Grano Cotto.

James (43:42):
Grano Cotto for the pie, the Easter pie. They have all this stuff…

Tara (43:46):
Yeah, you can’t find that anywhere else.

James (43:47):
… that it’s almost like you have to go there, but this is almost like… They’re going to probably hate me for saying this. You want to own that market. Why don’t you own it with good quality produce and basil? I get some things might be bad, but it’s like basil’s a really important ingredient.

Tara (44:08):
The only basil, because [inaudible 00:44:09] basil, [inaudible 00:44:12] has great produce, but their basil is usually not good either. The only good basil in the store is at Whole Foods. They have Gotham Greens, which is… I think it’s good because it’s grown in Brooklyn, so it’s not sitting on a truck forever.

James (44:24):
It is good, but I’ll tell you that one too, the second you open it, it deflates. Maybe I’m asking for too much here.

Tara (44:30):
You are. Yeah.

James (44:33):
Maybe I am.

Tara (44:33):
You might be. Yeah.

James (44:34):
All right, let’s move on to the next question.

Question 2 – Is there ever a time for dried spices?

Tara (44:36):
Let’s move on. This question comes from Chris. I see in a lot of your videos recommendations for fresh herbs and spices. Out here in the sticks of Texas, getting those fresh in a store is difficult and I just don’t have room to grow them. Is there a place for the dried stuff? Are there dried spices that simply must be avoided?

James (44:55):
Well, Chris, yeah, we’re going to continue the herb conversation here. That first question wasn’t even about it, but then… So this is a good…

Tara (45:02):
You didn’t even know I was asking this question.

James (45:03):
This is a great transition here.

Tara (45:04):
This was a natural segue.

James (45:07):
Yeah. No, the basil, maybe you have enough room to grow a little bit indoors. That’s what we’re going to do this year. I’ll just tell you, and I’ve said this plenty of times now, dried basil is not a good ingredient. In my opinion, it’s a downright horrible ingredient. In my opinion, if you’re following a website that uses a lot of it, but I wouldn’t recommend any of their recipes, because people who know, and they know… This is the easiest way for me to describe this. There will never be a person, ever, who will use dried basil when fresh basil is around. Do you agree with that, Tara?

Tara (45:47):
Yeah. I don’t even think dried basil is a substitute…

James (45:49):
It’s not.

Tara (45:50):
… for fresh basil.

James (45:52):
It changes into a completely licoricey, disgusting, overly potent mess that doesn’t resemble at all what it once was. Oregano on the other hand actually gets better when it’s dried. It gets more potent, in a good way. Thyme is another one. Thyme is great fresh. It’s great dried. Rosemary, great fresh, excellent dried. Basil, big no-no.

Tara (46:24):
What about parsley?

James (46:26):
Parsley is fine to use dry. It has no taste. It’s green sawdust, but it’s not going to ruin your food. Dried basil will ruin your food. Yeah, we use a lot of fresh herbs on the channel. It’s partly… You can store your parsley though. Say you want to buy a bunch and you don’t use it and you’re like, “I’m just wasting it every week.” My grandmother would always portion that into little foil packets and stick them always in the side of the freezer and then pull that out, chop their parsley.

Basil, you could kind of do it with. It does change the flavor a little bit. Dried basil and the thing called Italian seasoning has no practical use in Italian or Italian/American food. If you see somebody using it, and I don’t like to be a hater, but in this instance, I got to tell you, I would question every single recipe the person has if they’re using that. Am I being too drastic about this here? Am I being too, whatever? I don’t think I am.

Tara (47:33):
I do not enjoy Italian seasoning. I think it ruins dishes. That’s my personal opinion. That’s not influenced by you. I’ve tried using it, I think back in the day when I used to follow recipes, and it’s not good. Now when I see that somebody is using two tablespoons worth of Italian seasoning to make their marinara sauce, it is mind-boggling to me. I’m like, “Marinara is supposed to be a fresh tomato sauce.”

James (48:07):
Yeah. It’s disgusting. We get these quest… I get these comments now. Beef bourguignon is going viral on the channel. It’s got over 400,000 views in seven days. This might go on to be like a 5 million view video. I’m getting the morons in the comment sections now. Today, I had to hide… I had to block five people. They’re like, “Why does this…” They called me a moron. They’re like, “Why does this moron think that he can get away with putting no seasoning in this dish and it’s going to be good?” These people, and I’m talking to you if you’re listening right now who was writing that,

Tara (48:46):
They’re not listening.

James (48:47):
They sometimes do. They are watching these people that are dumping spices on food with black gloves, those bro gloves. You watch those people at your own peril. Everything will be horrible if you follow them. You do not need to use half of your spice cabinet every time you cook a dish. How much money are you spending on spices? It’s absurd. Don’t even get me started, I know I get criticized for using too much salt, the amount of salt that I see people putting on stuff.

Yeah, again, ultimately do what you want, but if you really want to take one word of advice I say, don’t use dried basil or Italian seasoning.

Ingredients shown: Locatelli Pecorino Romano, San Marzano tomatoes, mozzarella cheese, olive oil, garlic, and Sicilian oregano.

Dried Sicilian oregano is wonderful in certain recipes like our Grandma pizza.

Tara (49:31):
I think you should get a T-shirt that says, “Don’t use dried basil.”

James (49:36):
Yeah, I’m going to get a mug, merch mug. “Say no to dried basil.”

Tara (49:38):
Or it’ll be one of those, the signs, the no smoking sign with the line through it. You’ll have dried basil.

James (49:46):
Right up there.

Tara (49:47):

James (49:47):
We have nothing up there yet.

Tara (49:49):
You’ve entered the no dried basil zone.

James (49:50):
The no dried basil zone. Oh my God. We’re really dating ourselves now. He got canceled like 10 years ago.

Question 3 – favorite cookbooks and rainbow cookies

Tara (49:59):
All right. This is from Pam. I’m curious if there are any Go-to cookbooks you use for your recipes. Do you have a recipe for rainbow cookies? Two part question. I know Pam asked specifically about cookbooks. Do you want to throw in a website?

James (50:15):
The gentleman I spoke about earlier that Tara read the quote from him, that’s Frank Fariello. I really trust his recipes. I trust his site. I trust his knowledge. I don’t really go to his site for the recipes per se. I go there to know the backstory of the dish, which I think he does really well. That being said, I’m sure his recipes are… I’m sure they’re perfect. Because I look at them. You’re not going to find Frank Fariello using dried basil and Italian seasoning in any of his recipes, period. I’m going out on a limb here in saying that, and I haven’t looked at his recipes, but there’s no way that he’s going to be using that. That’s ditto for a lot of other people.

I heard that one of the best recipe authors is Harold McGee. That one, it’s like a bible on how to cook everything and very much in a scientific way, but basically it will get you through everything. You’ll learn supposedly everything in there that you would learn in culinary school.

Tara (51:13):
But you haven’t used it personally.

James (51:15):
I haven’t.

Tara (51:15):
Do you have any cookbooks that you reference? What about Marcella Hazan?

James (51:19):
Marcella Hazan? I don’t have… Do we have any of her cookbooks?

Tara (51:23):

James (51:24):
Angie let us borrow a couple. I don’t really like to look at recipe books per se. I’ll get a general sense of how something’s done, then I’ll try to find a little bit more of the history of the dish, and then I try to make my attempt at it. I’m never really trying to make anything a hundred percent authentic, so I don’t really have to do research in that manner to. I have to do more research to do a show like we did today, because I’m always trying to make things authentic to how they are here in New York, and really trying to fulfill that experience if you grew up in a similar situation that I did, predominantly in this pocket of America, but that’s it. I respect all these authors and the amount of time and effort it takes to make a cookbook. We might really be in the process of doing that now. It’s a monumental undertaking to do it.

Tara (52:16):
Let’s go on and answer Pam’s second part of the question, which is, do we have a recipe for rainbow cookies? Which I think was interesting because we were just talking about doing a rainbow cookie recipe yesterday with Sammy, our daughter, who does some recipe testing for us on the desserts because she loves baking. We don’t have the rainbow cookie recipe yet. We would like to get one out. I don’t know if it’s going to be this year though, because it’s a time for Christmas. It’s a very involved process.

James (52:50):
It’s a tough thing, Pam, because we’re doing all these fall ones now. When that ends, then we have limited time to get the recipes, those last bit of cookies we want before Christmas time. I really want to put it up, like Tara was saying, but I don’t know if we’re going to get to it. I can’t make any promises.

Tara (53:11):
Yeah. For now, we have a decent amount of the Christmas cookies, Italian cookies. We have the Cuccidati. We have the Reginae. We have Pignoli.

James (53:23):
Yeah, there’s a lot.

Tara (53:24):
We have a lot of them, but I love rainbow cookies. I would love to put a recipe up.

James (53:29):
Yeah. That actually doesn’t sound that hard.

Tara (53:31):
I don’t think it’s that hard, it just is time consuming. It’s one thing to make them, but it’s another… When we put up a recipe, we usually test it at least once before we photograph it, but there’s also the whole photographing process that’s involved. For example, probably the most difficult dessert recipe we’ve done was cannoli.

James (53:59):
Cannoli by far.

Tara (53:59):
That was a beast.

James (54:00):
By far. I believe we spoke about it in previous episodes. I don’t know how many people made it. That’s the thing. Actually, probably more people would make a rainbow cookie.

Tara (54:10):

James (54:11):
You know what, Pam? I think we’re going to do it. Don’t hold me to it, but I think we’re going to do it.

Tara (54:14):
I think we have to, it’s just I don’t know if we’ll it out by this Christmas.

James (54:19):
Yeah. Anyway, that’s it for today. Leave us your questions. We’ll see you next week.

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